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Dr Andrea Robertson is an Osteopath, Naturopath, and Nutritionist. Georgie Beames is a Psychologist and Coach. The information shared in this podcast is for educational purposes only and does not constitute medical advice. Always consult your healthcare provider before making changes to your health regimen.

Show Notes

Episode Transcript

Episode 15 - Nathalie Sebbag’s MS Diagnosis: Building a Care Team, AIP Nutrition, and Living Well Without Being Defined by a Label

[00:00:00] Well, let's go worst case scenario. I thought it was a brain tumor, then I thought MS, and then I thought a disc bulge. for quite a while I was waking up every morning wondering whether I was gonna be able to walk to the bathroom. So that when my pins and needles came on in my hands, I was like, "I use my hands all the time.

Am I not gonna be able to feel? I just asked to be able to feel more, and now is my ability to feel gonna be taken away? Like, and this is my life."

Sponsor today is Mineralite, an Australian electrolytes brand. And I have to tell you how I found them because this is a genuine story. Now, I'm really into paddle tennis, some may say obsessed , and a friend of mine introduced me to Mineralite to use for my hydration support during games. I was a little curious because I'd been recommending clients avoid those terrible sugary sports drinks for years, but I wasn't really sure what other options were available.

I now know that Mineralite is the option I'll recommend. It's unflavored and contains no sugar, no sweeteners, no artificial colors, no nasty additives. [00:01:00] Just clean electrolyte support in drops you can add to your water or any hot or cold drink. And my paddle? It was noticeably different. My energy held, my focus held, and I even won some games.

Mineralite is now in my water every single day. Go and check them out at mineralite.com.au or find them in most pharmacies and health food stores throughout Australia and New Zealand

Andrea: My guest today is Natalie Sebag. Nat is an osteopath. She runs In Health Osteopathy out of Lifeforce Clinic in Malvern, Melbourne, and her work is biodynamic and cranial osteopathy. Very gentle, very whole body, seeing anyone from newborn babies right through to 90-year-olds. Nat also makes the most beautiful room sprays under the name Pebble Lane.

Andrea: And for anyone who has my recipe book, Nat is the Nattie that you have read about. Quite a number of the recipes in there are named after her, because she not only made them up, but she shared them with me to share in my recipe books. Almost eight years ago, at 41, [00:02:00] Nat was diagnosed with MS. Before that, there had been glandular fever at 16, gut issues through her 20s, Hashimoto's, and PCOS at 30.

Andrea: She has spent her whole career showing other people how to heal, and then she had to work out how to be a practitioner for herself. I wanna say one thing clearly before we start. Nat made her own decisions about her own care with her own medical team, her own specialists, and two extraordinary friends in the room with her.

Andrea: What you're about to hear is her story. It is not a protocol, and it is not advice about your medication. Please do not change anything you are taking on the strength of a podcast. Take it to the practitioner who knows your full picture. I'm Dr. Andrea Robertson, osteopath, naturopath, and nutritionist.

Andrea: Here we nourish, because food is medicine, and what you eat changes everything. We heal, because the body has an extraordinary capacity to self-repair when we remove what's blocking it. [00:03:00] And we rise, because feeling well isn't the destination. It's the foundation for living the life you truly desire. This is Nourish, Heal, and Rise.

Before we begin, a quick and important note. Everything I share on this podcast is for educational purposes only. It's not personal medical advice, and it can't be, because in the context of this podcast, I don't know your health history, your medications, and what else is happening in your body. What I want this podcast to do is give you the knowledge to ask better questions, understand your body more deeply, and make more informed decisions in partnerships with the practitioners who do know you.

If something resonates and you wanna take action, please work with a qualified healthcare provider who knows your full picture

Andrea: So here we go. I have my beautiful friend Nattie. Everyone else calls her Nat, I call her [00:04:00] Nattie, here today.

Andrea: So I'm gonna launch straight in. The listeners are gonna hear your story as we go, so I'm not worried about that.

Andrea: But I would love you to start off by asking you a, kind of a deep-dive question. So if you listen to the first specialist who told you what your future was gonna look like, where would you be right now?

Nathalie: Hmm. Wow. Interesting question. I guess It's actually a bit of an emotional question actually 'cause I haven't really thought about it.

Nathalie: So about almost eight years ago, I started to develop some symptoms. So just started off with some tingling in the tips of my fingers, and I thought, "Oh, okay, this is a little bit interesting," and given that we're both osteopaths, we have a little bit of an understanding of what the body's doing.

Nathalie: And I didn't feel like this was normal, so I sort of sat with it for a little bit. I did some testing on myself, and I just got a little bit curious when it wasn't going away. So after a few weeks I went and made a, an appointment with my GP, which [00:05:00] is not a very common thing for me to do, is to see the GP 'cause generally I'm pretty healthy.

Nathalie: So when I went to see my regular GP I think she was sort of surprised as well that I was coming to see her. So she referred me off straight away for some an MRI actually, and I was like, "Oh, okay." And I did have in my head three different, what we call differential diagnoses, of what it possibly could be.

Andrea: What, what did you think it was originally?

Nathalie: Well, let's go worst case scenario. I thought it was a brain tumor.

Nathalie: Then I thought MS, and then I thought a disc bulge.

Nathalie: And I don't know where MS came from, but it definitely popped in my head.

Nathalie: So I went for the first MRI, and that was actually quite a- anxiety-driven sort of experience, 'cause I've never had anything like this before. So- And I

Andrea: remember talking to you, like, we were waiting, weren't we? Waiting with bated breath for these results- Yeah ... 'cause I remember talking to you around that time about that.

Nathalie: Yeah. And I, I remember, I think I spoke to my dad on my way to the MRI, and I was so [00:06:00] nervous. I rushed from work. I'd just been treating patients, and I went for an appointment, and they were really, really lovely. , But it was just a bit of a whirlwind, 'cause I didn't know what to expect, and I'd never had an MRI before.

Nathalie: And so that was actually a very interesting experience. It wasn't at all what I expected. It was qui- yeah. Yeah, quite interesting.

Andrea: Clunk, clunk, clunk, clunk, clunk. Oh, and they- So noisy if you've ever- Yes ... had

Nathalie: an MRI. Yeah. And da, da, da, da, da, da. Yeah. Um, so I had to just sort of really fine-tune and sort of center myself a little bit to feel a little bit more relaxed.

Nathalie: And I guess it was a little bit of a, a wait. So the GP called me in, they got the results, and the preliminary diagnosis was out of my original three differentials, I had two of the three. So I could cross off the brain tumor.

Andrea: Yeah.

Nathalie: So I didn't have that, so that was a relief. Yeah. But they did find a disc bulge, and they had, found what they call plaques or lesions in the brain and the spinal cord that could indicate MS.

Nathalie: Yeah, that, I don't even have words for that. That was pretty full-on. [00:07:00] And then that sort of steadied a stream of specialist appointments, and it was leading up to Christmas, so it was really hard to get in. And I'm lucky I had friends who are in the medical profession, so they could get me in to some specialists.

Nathalie: I think I may have seen five different specialists.

Andrea: I remember you really getting second opinion- Yeah ... third opinion, fourth opinion. Four. Which is such a good idea.

Nathalie: Yeah.

Andrea: And so what did the first specialist say to you?

Nathalie: , Basically looked at the scan, asked me a whole lot of questions, and basically said it is MS.

Nathalie: And that was it.

Andrea: And did they give you any, indication of what's next?

Nathalie: Oh, yeah, drugs. Right Medication. Yeah. They're like, "Okay, we're, we need to decide" ... And given, I think I was 41 at the time and didn't have kids, so the first question was- Mm ... "Do you wanna have kids?" Because then that was an indication as to what medication they might put me on.

Nathalie: I was really fortunate. I actually had two advocates with me. So I had my really good friend Gabby, [00:08:00] who is a PhD immunologist, and my really good friend Karen, who's an osteopath, so understands where I'm coming from as well. So presenting both the medical and the little bit more holistic, I guess, way that we think as osteopaths.

Nathalie: So I could not have done it without them. I think having someone, or two for me, two people there that understand the process and understand and know me, 'cause I was in a world of shock. I pretty much lost appetite, didn't sleep, and yeah, so it was actually really comforting having them, and they had my best interests at heart, and they know how I think.

Nathalie: And I'm not much of a rusher to go down certain paths. And they were able to ask questions that I knew I just wouldn't have had the capacity to have asked.

Nathalie: And then we would go out for a drink or a, a meal afterwards, and then they would debrief me. Even though I was there, I could actually have a little bit of space.

Andrea: And why did you keep searching.. like, [00:09:00] why did you keep going to different neurologists? Did you want a different, a, a treatment plan, or did you think there was a different opinion, or what kind of drove that?

Nathalie: I don't know.

Andrea: Mm.

Nathalie: I think there was the, I was hoping someone was gonna say, "No, it's not MS." And I was actually quite surprised that it was literally just based on the scan. I wasn't sure if I was gonna need more tests, like a lumbar puncture, which back in the day I think that's what they used to do. And what, and also I, I think being, if I was gonna be in the care of someone, I actually wanted to feel safe and comfortable with the practitioner- Yeah

Nathalie: that I was gonna be working with.

Andrea: Yeah.

Nathalie: So they were pretty much, I remember seeing one specialist, and they were all very experienced practitioners. I remember one, we went straight from an appointment with her, and I didn't realize we went then straight to an appointment with the nurse, and she was already starting to write a protocol of what drugs I was gonna be taking, when I was gonna be coming in.

Nathalie: And thank goodness, I [00:10:00] remember my friend Gabby sort of saying, "Oh, one second. I actually don't think she's ready for this just yet." I think I was sort of almost lost my voice in a way. Mm. I was so grateful to have her with me to be able to speak for me on my behalf, which was good, and she was right.

Andrea: Mm-hmm.

Nathalie: Um, so yeah, I think what the first specialist said, I think the tricky part with MS is the ideas or, that we have of it being such a progressive and debilitating condition. So I think I was stuck in this idea. So for quite a while, I was waking up every morning wondering whether I was gonna be able to walk to the bathroom.

Andrea: Yeah.

Nathalie: And weighing up the idea of what medication to go on. And so going back to what you were asking, the factors were, was I considering starting a family? And interestingly enough, I had just started seeing my now partner of over seven years. [00:11:00] Literally it was our first date was the night before my official diagnosis.

Nathalie: Yeah. Poor Ant.

Andrea: Poor Ant.

Nathalie: Ah, no, he's been amazing. So there was that, and then what type of medication, and the explanation was that no medication was actually going to cure the MS. So it was all about management. And I was already, as you know, as we, we both do and we share over the years, is living as healthily as possible, whether it's nutrition, exercise and movement-

Andrea: Lifestyle

Nathalie: Lifestyle- Other stuff ... all those things. Good friends.

Andrea: And...

Nathalie: Yes. Social

Andrea: connections.

Nathalie: Yes, connections. So yeah, so it was a bit of Like this is the only way. And I think I knew, I was starting to feel a bit more confident in my own abilities and education as a osteopath, that there were other questions to ask and other sort of pathways to potentially explore- Yeah

Nathalie: and go down, whether it's in conjunction with the medication they were suggesting.

Andrea: So I know that you are not on medication. [00:12:00] 

Nathalie: Yes.

Andrea: And you decided not to do that for you. So what was the little moment that you found an alternative thought process or you decided not to go down that path? 'Cause wasn't there someone in America that you heard about that inspired you?

Nathalie: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So I think if we take a step back, too, it's with a lot of our education and the choices we've made along the way that I think has helped with this decision. But there was also a well-known doctor in America, Dr. Terry Wahls, and so she's written a book, The Wahls Protocol.

Andrea: I remember you telling me about that.

Nathalie: Yeah. So she was diagnosed, quite a while ago with MS, and she went and saw all the specialists, the top specialists. They put her on the medication and she kept progressively getting worse. And over her time of research, she was exploring about mitochondrial health, and so she went on her own journey and worked out how to best support [00:13:00] her health with that.

Nathalie: I think she'd explained that she was a vegetarian in the past and realized that she needed to make some changes and adaptations to her lifestyle as well. So

Andrea: did she start eating meat?

Nathalie: Yeah, so I think it was nine cups of vegetables a day, , meat, but also a list of supplements- Yeah

Nathalie: a day. And so she slowly progressively improved and saw the improvement and started to put it together into her own sort of protocol. Yeah. And it's amazing.

Andrea: And have you followed that protocol? Have you used it for inspiration?

Nathalie: A little bit. Full disclosure, I've struggled, as you know, struggled to read.

Nathalie: So just my mindset in terms of being out of focus to read all the information. So I've listened to some of her presentations. There's another Australian doctor as well, who's done a lot of research, and I think his approach is a little bit different. So I've adapted a little bit, but [00:14:00] I was working with a naturopath at the time of the diagnosis, and she recommended that I go on the autoimmune protocol.

Nathalie: So I did that pretty consistently for the first few months.

Andrea: Yeah. And then I remember you doing that a lot. So That was the autoimmune paleo protocol that you did? Yes.

Nathalie: Yeah.

Andrea: Yeah. That's something that I do with a lot of my clients too who are autoimmune because it just pulls inflammation levels right down- Mm

Andrea: and gives the body a really nice break and rest, and then you can start to work out what your tolerance level is for some of those-

Nathalie: Yeah ...

Andrea: different foods that you may or may not be able to have a little bit or a bit more or a lot or.

Nathalie: Yeah. And the other interesting side note, I don't know if I shared with you, was that I was also diagnosed- Or when I was about 30 with Hashimoto's.

Nathalie: Oh

Andrea: yeah, I wanted to talk to you about that. Yeah. Right. Can I ask another question then, Natalie? Yeah. Because the history, like I know a little bit about this girl 'cause I love her a lot. But I know the history, there was like glandular fever when you were 16, and then you had some IBS symptoms, so some gut [00:15:00] issues- Mm-hmm

Andrea: irritable bowel syndrome in your 20s. Then you got Hashimoto's diagnosis, which is a thyroid autoimmune disease, and often when we have autoimmune diseases, if we go through a period of something that's stress on the body, which can be a physical stress or an emotional stress or a hormonal transition like perimenopause, the body often starts to gather other autoimmune diseases.

Andrea: So here you are with the first one, Hashimoto's, and then we've got PCOS, now named- Mm-hmm ... PMOS- Yes ... , at 30. Then the MS at 41. Looking back, do you think there was... Do you think there's a thread in between those, or do you see them as separate events?

Nathalie: It's all part of the same story.

Nathalie: I think we can look at them in isolation because there's time that separates them.

Nathalie: But I think a lot of it stems back to probably the glandular fever as a 16-year-old, but that's not something I realized then or when I was 30. So it's probably something that I [00:16:00] realized... So one of the things that was interesting, one of the questions I was asked by all the specialists was had I had glandular fever.

Andrea: Interesting.

Nathalie: Yeah. So at one time they believed that 80% of MS diagnoses or patients had had glandular fever- Glandular ... or a form of it. Oh. Whether it was Epstein-Barr or cytomegalovirus. Now they're not so sure. It's not that high. But there's a high proportion of people with autoimmune conditions, so not just MS- Yeah

Nathalie: that have a history of glandular fever. And with that, the viral load from the glandular, it stays dormant in your system- Yeah ... and it can manifest if the right circumstances are given. Or the wrong circumstances. Or the, or the wrong, yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So certain triggers can be switched.

Nathalie: And the other thing that we've spoken about is that I don't like saying that I have MS- No

Nathalie: or that I have Hashimoto's, and I think that's a little bit more of [00:17:00] a mindset thing, but that I was diagnosed with. Yeah. 'Cause I don't want to be defined by- A label ... a label. But also I don't own it-

Andrea: Yeah ...

Nathalie: either. Yeah. So it is something that I'm living with and working out how to manage the best that I can.

Nathalie: Yeah.

Andrea: Which is perfectly taking me into what I want to share or ask you next. Okay. Because yesterday, Nattie and I played padel together. So she does not look like someone that you would imagine a picture of MS would look like. Do you, Nattie? Like, you just don't. And we wouldn't have thought seven years ago that you'd be playing padel with me.

Andrea: Well, we didn't even know what padel was. Yes,

Nathalie: you... Oh, yeah, that's true. We didn't know what padel was.

Andrea: So we didn't think you'd be playing- No ... padel with me, but maybe we didn't think that was what was gonna happen.

Nathalie: Yeah. Well, so the thing is what the doctors shared with me, too, was that somebody who chooses to not medicate, the likelihood of relapse I can't remember the exact numbers, but within three to five years, and whereas with [00:18:00] medication, it would be about seven years.

Nathalie: So I'm now at seven and a half years, and when I share with some people that I was diagnosed with MS, the first thing they say is, "You don't look

Andrea: like it." "

Nathalie: You don't look like it." Yeah. So and I don't know what MS looks like, but there's so many different pictures. And I guess for me, my picture of MS was, I don't know if anyone else remembers, but in the '80s at school, we did the MS Readathon.

Nathalie: And, um, back then, Richard Pryor, for some of you may or may not know who he is, he was an American actor, comedian. Oh, yeah. And he was... Oh, you don't know him? Okay. Um, go research. He was a funny guy. Interesting. But he was diagnosed with MS, and so that idea of being in a wheelchair, I think was the image that I had and to a certain extent still have, but I know that it's not necessarily- True for everybody

Andrea: that's the picture I have too, 'cause the only person that I've known other than you who was diagnosed with MS was a [00:19:00] family friend- Mm ... who I've known since I was a child, and I would have been probably just early high school when she was diagnosed. Yeah. And she had a very steep decline, and she's still alive, but she's, been really incapacitated- Mm

Andrea: for all that time, and- Yeah ... that was the only picture I had, so I was so sad and upset- Mm ... when we first . heard about your diagnosis. Mm. But you are not that.

Nathalie: Well, I'm not.

Andrea: So-

Nathalie: Yeah ...

Andrea: let's talk about what you've done- Yeah ... darling. Like, if you haven't done medication, what have you done?

Nathalie: There's always that, I could be doing more.

Andrea: Couldn't we all?

Nathalie: Yes, exactly.

Andrea: Yeah.

Nathalie: And I'm not perfect, and none of us are. And it was hard. So in the beginning, I think I was really diligent with the autoimmune protocol, and that was really good. And so if we go back to the Hashimoto's, what's interesting, I was taking thyroxine and had been for 20 years.

Nathalie: Or maybe not at that point. It was about 15 years. But there was no change at all to my hormone levels. The [00:20:00] autoantibodies- still stayed high. And I was already gluten-free, for the most part dairy-free, 'cause I was never a big dairy person, and for the most part refined sugar-free.

Nathalie: And then going on the protocol, after about three to six months, I can't remember exactly, but there was the biggest decline in my autoantibodies, two of them in particular, that were so elevated, and they came down, and I hadn't changed anything other than this protocol.

Andrea: Yeah.

Nathalie: So I was like, "Oh, that's interesting."

Nathalie: And they've pretty much stayed consistent since then. So in terms of nutritionally, I am still gluten-free, refined sugar-free, dairy-free, except I do enjoy a little bit of goat's cheese here and there, and some organic ghee or butter. And if there's a little bit of Camembert or something on a plate I might [00:21:00] have a little bit.

Nathalie: And then I essentially avoid nightshades as well, and lentils and legumes.

Andrea: Because they're all items that are not on that autoimmune- That's it ... paleo diet. Yeah. So that's why. Yeah.

Nathalie: And inflammatory- Yeah ... or can be for some people.

Andrea: Yeah.

Nathalie: I've never been a coffee drinker, so that's been an easy- Fine

Nathalie: omission. Alcohol as well. I'm not a big drinker, but My partner works in the alcohol industry. And my father's French, so I grew up- with red wine and all the time. So I'm just trying to think what else there was. So I think that's for the most part- In terms of nutrition-

Nathalie: and I tend to make most of my things- as well. So- It's- And we share a lot of recipes- We

Andrea: share.

Nathalie: So,

Andrea: can I interrupt?

Nathalie: You sure can.

Andrea: Nattie is very famous, because she's in my recipe book, and many of the recipes are called Nattie's XYZ, Nattie's ABC. Because when I was making my recipe book, Nattie was, uh, this is, oh, God, it was 2005- [00:22:00] Oh, really?

Andrea: I made my recipe book. So a long time ago now. Wow. And Nattie was saying to me " you need to put this recipe in there. You need to put this recipe in there." Did I? And I would... Yeah, you did. Ah, okay. And I would stay with Nattie every time I came to Melbourne. Okay. And we would be cooking in the kitchen, or she'd make me some amazing breakfast or, and I'm like, "Oh, this has to go in the cookbook."

Andrea: So there's many references to this gorgeous human in the cookbook. And wasn't it someone the other day met you and said, "Oh, my God, you're the Nattie from the book." Oh,

Nathalie: yeah. Oh, you know who it was? It was, Sonia from Mineralyte.

Andrea: Oh.

Andrea: Yes. Sonia from Mineralyte- Yes ... one of our podcast sponsors.

Nathalie: Yes. We met for the first time, and she's like, "Are you Nattie from the cookbook?"

Andrea: Yes. Yeah. She's famous. And so on that, Nattie, I've got a little, thing behind me. So for those who are watching, you can see this. For those who aren't watching, I'm gonna describe it. This is a little jar of some ground-up seeds.

Nathalie: Yeah.

Andrea: And this is one of Nattie's famous recipes that hasn't yet had anything done to it.

Andrea: So I've got some linseeds, chia seeds, pepitas- And sunflower ... and sunflower seeds- [00:23:00] Yeah ... I think I've got in that mix.

Nathalie: Can't remember the recipe. And hemp. Did you put

Andrea: hemp? No, I didn't grind up- Okay ... the hemp, because I put that in later, 'cause I- Okay ... tried grinding it up and it goes mushy.

Nathalie: Yes.

Andrea: So I put that in later. Yeah. So this then, do you wanna tell everyone what you do with that?

Andrea: Yeah. 'Cause it's, this is a really good base for many amazing things. Yes. And a lot of people can't have nuts if they've got an autoimmune disease. Oh,

Nathalie: yeah, I was nut-free

Andrea: as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nattie was nut-free. So seeds are okay for people on autoimmune, but if it's a really active- Phase of autoimmune or better off without nuts

Nathalie: Without seeds.

Nathalie: And even seeds with some, some protocols even suggest no seeds as well There you go And even weirdly there was no cumin. Some spices as well that I have to avoid.

Andrea: Mm-hmm.

Nathalie: So I'm back on seeds.

Andrea: But you don't have many nuts still, do you now?

Nathalie: No, I might have some Brazil nuts- Yeah

Nathalie: For the selenium. Occasionally I'll have some walnuts and things like that, but not too many. Yeah. If anything, it's quite rare. So this is, for me, this is gold. So. i keep it in a glass container in the fridge.

Andrea: That's normally in the fridge.

Nathalie: Yes. So- I pulled

Andrea: it out because of my special

Nathalie: guest.

Nathalie: Oh, this is a [00:24:00] surprise. So I don't always have chia seeds, to be honest, in there because of the linseed, but I sometimes, I add it. I actually don't blend them either. So with the hemp seed, I just throw it in afterwards. Yeah. And so this is so versatile. So I use this to make a porridge because...

Nathalie: Oh, and the other thing is I'm allergic to quinoa. I can't really have alternatives of quinoa, so I had to come up with something. So this blend here, if you just add a milk or a water, a liquid of whatever you like, heat it up on the stove, and you can add some protein powder, collagen powder.

Nathalie: Cinnamon's my favorite, so I always add cinnamon. A little bit of cardamom or ginger-

Andrea: Yeah ...

Nathalie: and make a little porridge.

You

Andrea: just add cardamom and ginger spice- Spice ... like dried spices?

Nathalie: Dried spices. Yeah. Yeah, as I'm making that. In terms of quantities, I'm like my grandmother. It's a pinch of this and a pinch of that.

Nathalie: So just whatever consistency works for you.

Andrea: I think with the seeds what I've done, 'cause I do need a recipe

Nathalie: Yeah. [00:25:00] 

Andrea: So Nat, Nattie, I know this is in your head, but I'm gonna write it out like a recipe. Yeah. I think I put in a quarter a cup of each seed.

Nathalie: When

Andrea: I made my initial mix

Nathalie: Okay.

Andrea: Yeah Yeah And then I,

Nathalie: oh, I don't e- I couldn't even tell you what I-

Andrea: And then I think I use six tablespoons, which is about half a cup- Yeah ... when I make my pancakes.

Nathalie: Yeah, so I've ... That one I remember 'cause we went through that. Yeah. So that's the porridge. Then you can make it as a cold one like a Bircher muesli, so grated apple- coconut yogurt, coconut water. Same thing. And leave that, and then it's ready the next morning. So it's similar. So that's , the porridge, then the Bircher muesli version. And then the little pikelets, which we've made before. So I use about five heaped or six heaped tablespoons of the seed mix. Five heaped teaspoons of tapioca flour.

Andrea: Yeah.

Nathalie: Sometimes I'll add protein powder, again, collagen powder.

Andrea: Hemp seeds.

Nathalie: Oh, hemp se- yeah, yeah. Yeah. So- Add them in

Andrea: as well.

Nathalie: Yeah.

Andrea: Yeah.

Nathalie: So in my mix I've already got the hemp seeds. Oh, you

Andrea: put in- I

Nathalie: put it

Andrea: in later ...

Nathalie: put in later.

Nathalie: Yeah. Yeah. So I've already got it blended in- Nice ... with the hemp [00:26:00] seeds. And then that's I think one egg and , again, liquid of choice Yeah So tiger nut milk, coconut milk water

Andrea: Just to make like a pancake consistency To make it, yeah. A pikelet consistency. Yeah.

Nathalie: And because of the linseeds and the chia seeds, it does thicken up.

Nathalie: So over time you might need to add a little bit more liquid.

Andrea: Yeah.

Nathalie: And then I, again, more cinnamon. And then I make them into little pikelets, and, sometimes I'll make them and have them for a snack, my mid-morning snack.

Andrea: The other day I had a really busy week and I made up a whole jar, whole batch of them that big.

Nathalie: Yeah.

Andrea: And then I put them in the fridge. And I literally, was my breakfast for a few days. Yeah.

Nathalie: Yeah. '

Andrea: Cause I just didn't have much time. Yeah. And I took it in a little container with me to work, and I actually ate some of it in the car- Yeah

Andrea: which, do not do. It's not very good to eat your food in the car.

Nathalie: Yeah.

Andrea: You need to be centered, take some deep breaths- Yeah ... be in your parasympathetic rest, relaxed, digest nervous system, not like, "Go, go, go, go, go, gotta get to work." Yeah. This is a case of do what I say, not what I do.

Nathalie: We're perfectly imperfect.

Andrea: Yeah. Yes. We are perfectly imperfect. Yeah. Me too, Nat.

Nathalie: Yeah.

Andrea: But yeah, so it's so great. And it's filling [00:27:00] 'cause it's full of protein. Yeah. So- Yeah, it's great ... especially when you pump it with the hemp-

Nathalie: Yeah ...

Andrea: as well

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Nathalie: . And then another thing that I make with it is crumble. So I make an apple crumble.

Nathalie: That's right. So I'll poach, I'll stew my apples, or pears, or rhubarb, whatever is in season. And I love a good apple crumble, [00:28:00] So similar to the pancake mix, but without the wet ingredients. So I just use the seeds blended with some tapioca flour, and either some grass-fed butter or coconut oil, so firm.

Andrea: Yeah.

Nathalie: So cold butter or, and firm coconut oil. And then mix it up till it forms a fine crumb, and then I put that in the oven. And then it's even nice as a muesli topping as well. So if you've got poached fruit, or you've got your coconut yogurt with your fresh blueberries, and you can sprinkle that on top so it's a little bit of crunch as well.

Nathalie: Yeah.

Andrea: So- have you ever baked it in the oven without the crumb- as a crumble but on a baking tray to make a granola out of that?

Nathalie: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,

Andrea: you

Nathalie: have. Yeah,

Andrea: yeah.

Nathalie: So that's like a, a crumble. Yeah. And if you want, you can add some other things to it. If you can do nuts, in that instance you can put the nuts in, or some dried fruit.

Nathalie: Just careful, they might caramelize.

Andrea: Yeah.

Nathalie: And pop them in the tray. And then you've got a nice crumble version-

Andrea: Yeah ...

Nathalie: as [00:29:00] well.

Andrea: Oh, so

Nathalie: good. And then I also use it to make my shortbread cookies

Andrea: That's ... Yeah- Yeah ... your, her shortbread cookie are amazing. I had one the other day.

Nathalie: Yeah. Oh, did you?

Andrea: Nattie- Well, from you.

Andrea: Oh, yeah. Nattie and I are very similar in whenever there's a thing on, like last Sunday there was a padel event.

Andrea: Either I take food or Nattie takes food, or we both take food. But I was a bit busy last week and Nattie took all the food last Sunday for this padel event. Everyone was like, "Oh, did Andrea bring this?"

Andrea: I'm like, "No, hands off. It wasn't me this time. It's all my beautiful friend Nattie." But your cookies, you brought- Oh ... to many things that I've done. Yes. You brought them to our retreat that we ran last year.

Nathalie: Yeah. But the other things that , I made the crackers.

Andrea: Crackers last time. Yes.

Andrea: Tell, um,

Nathalie: tell everyone about your crackers. Okay, the crackers.

Nathalie: So essentially it's using the same ingredients, but they're not crushed. Yes. . While it's a easy process, , it just takes a bit of time. A bit of patience, a bit of love. Yeah. So I will soak some golden and brown linseeds, or whatever I have on hand.

Nathalie: Soak them in [00:30:00] water, and they absorb all the water and they become gel-like. Yeah. And then in a separate bowl, I'll soak sunflower seeds, pumpkin seeds, and hemp seeds. And then I'll soak them overnight, drain those seeds, and then mix them in with the gelatinized linseeds. Yeah. And they stick together and they create a nice sort of consistency.

Nathalie: And then I'll add some other flavoring, so some nutritional yeast or tamari-

Andrea: Yeah, yum ...

Nathalie: and some salt. And then I'll spread them out on an oven, and I'll cook them on the ... I go- On an

Andrea: oven tray?

Nathalie: Of an, on an oven tray.

Andrea: Yeah.

Nathalie: Um-

Andrea: Do you put baking paper down first?

Nathalie: Yes. Although I use more a silicon sheet.

Andrea: Okay.

Nathalie: it depends what I have on hand. I put on the lowest setting in the oven and bake them for about 12 hours.

Andrea: I'm gonna ask you a question- Mm ... because I had a client ask me this question this week, and I was like, "Oh, I don't know." So they asked me what I thought about silicon for baking.

Nathalie: Yes.

Andrea: And I was like, "Oh, I don't know." Like, I feel like- Better if we [00:31:00] don't because it has to come f- from s- like, is there any plastics in... I don't know. Have you done any research on that? You haven't done any research on it, no? No,

Nathalie: I haven't. So-

Andrea: that's something we need to research- Yeah ... because we need to know if that's-

Nathalie: Yeah

Andrea: doing us harm or good. Yeah. Like, we absolutely don't wanna use plastics in any other way that things are... Hot food's put into plastic or like we just don't want our food touching- Yeah ... or water touching plastic if it's a water bottle. But I wondered about silicon 'cause someone asked. Mm. And so yeah, I need to find out- I'm not s-

Andrea: the answer to that- Yeah ... and then we'll be able to share with

Nathalie: you all. I think the jury's still out, but I think there would be some research out there. Mm. With baking paper, again, you need to be careful if it's waxed or not. Yeah. So what I found was with the baking paper, because I'm baking it for such a long time, the paper would tear- Ah

Nathalie: and become really brittle.

Andrea: Yeah.

Nathalie: So I'd sometimes need to peel it lift the cracker, like it's a solid piece, and turn it over just to get the other side. So I'd need to wait a long time before I could do that and then the paper would rip. So- It

Andrea: wasn't working- Yeah ... for your [00:32:00] crackers. Mm.

Nathalie: It was a little bit trickier, so that's why I've got those.

Nathalie: Oh. And on the sense that they're reusable, so in that sense, sustainable as well. So but in terms of health-

Andrea: We need to look into that ... haven't...

Nathalie: Yeah.

Andrea: Yeah. We need to look into silicon- Yeah ... and find out. If anyone knows, you can tell us- Yes ... because we don't know. Um-

Andrea: Okay. There is another little something behind me. Do you wanna explain what this is?

Nathalie: Oh, this is just... Well, I just thought we were- gonna have a little chat, and it's afternoon, so a little afternoon tea. So

Andrea: those who are watching can see it. Do you wanna describe it for

Nathalie: those who are listening?

Nathalie: Yeah. I'm sorry, I didn't present it very well, but this is an orange and almond cake. So while I say I don't do nuts, I actually don't really do nuts and especially almonds. But yeah. So-

Andrea: Did you make all of that for me?

Nathalie: I made it all for you. And Mike. So my mom just gave me some ground almonds, to be honest, which I wasn't using.

Andrea: And

Nathalie: would

Andrea: you, would you eat that at the moment if it, a little tiny- A

Nathalie: little

Andrea: bit ... because of the almonds?

Nathalie: Yeah. A little bit. And, and it actually tastes really nice, so yes.

Andrea: So should I have a taste?

Nathalie: Yes, [00:33:00] please. So I was, I had some oranges that I got from the market, and it's literally just... Hopefully it tastes okay.

Andrea: It's really good. It's really good.

Nathalie: And, It's really- ...

Andrea: moist.

Nathalie: Yeah.

Andrea: Now I can taste the orange and the orange zest, which I love- Mm ... that kind of strength of that flavor. Mm. Really

Nathalie: good. And it's real- and it was literally just oranges, so whole oranges boiled for two hours, and you blitz that up. The almond meal, coconut sugar, egg yolks, and then I whipped up the egg whites- Mm

Nathalie: and I folded that through, and a pinch of salt, and that's it.

Andrea: And did you make that recipe up?  

Nathalie: No.

Andrea: Not that one. It's so

Nathalie: good. So, yes, so that's that. And I'm actually, as you know, I've got a, a full tree of lemons.

Andrea: Yes.

Nathalie: And I might try and make it-

Nathalie: with lemons and the seed mix. So quite often when a recipe calls for almond meal, I always use this seed mix. I just had the almond meal on- It's interchangeable, isn't it? ... hand, and I was g- Yeah. For the most part. Because of the linseeds it does absorb a bit of liquid. Mm. So those [00:34:00] cookies that I make is based on almond meal, but because there's no liquid in there it actually is quite swap one for one.

Andrea: Thanks for bringing that in. Pleasure. I'm gonna eat some more of that later. Now, is there anything else you wanna share about food or recipes- Ah ... or hot little tips for our listeners about how they can be gorgeous and healthy like you are? Ooh.

Nathalie: It's something that we've been doing for so long.

Nathalie: Yeah. So I think for me, if we go back to seven and a half years ago, the transition to do the AIP wasn't so o- so overwhelming. It was a little bit. The trickiest part I think is socializing when you're going out to cafes and restaurants. So quite often I would find out where I was going and look up the menu before, and then have an idea of what I could order.

Andrea: Yeah.

Nathalie: And in some cases, I know with a friend of mine, she would ring the restaurant and explain her dietary needs. I think the thing is, it's small steps. 'Cause it can be... Like, to go [00:35:00] from not doing any of these things at all to going full autoimmune can be really, really overwhelming. And that, as we said, there are some things...

Nathalie: So occasionally I will have something,

Andrea: It's exactly what I was saying to the ladies on my,.. we had a coaching call this morning for the Inflammation- Mm ... Detox Diet ladies. It's the ladies doing a three-week program with me. And and it came up three or four times about... It's about being consistent most of the time.

Andrea: But you don't have to be Miss Perfect all of the time. Because that consistency on a, I think it's you know, 85, 90, 95% of the time- Mm ... is what moves the needle. Whereas if you Miss Perfect one week a month- Yeah ... you're not gonna feel as good. Yeah. So it's just about still letting... Have little treats- Yeah

Andrea: and have a little bit of, you know, what you know is maybe not perfect-

Andrea: But being consistent. Yeah. And that gives a really sustainable approach- Yeah ... doesn't it?

Nathalie: It does. And I think, we go through our little rollercoaster, but not to [00:36:00] feel guilty if we've had- Yeah

Nathalie: something. It's just jumping back on.

Andrea: Yeah.

Nathalie: But yeah, I think for me there's been a little bit of a challenge of that consistency. I was really good for a while, and then I hit a bit of a, a moment where I was like, "Oh, I've had enough. I wanna be able to eat," whatever. Not that I w- ate anything, but I beca-

Nathalie: Oh, the other thing, there was no grains.

Andrea: Mm-hmm.

Nathalie: And my partner is an ex-chef and half Filipino, so rice is in everything. So I avoided rice for a really long time, but now I occasionally will have it, and when I see myself having it more than a few times a week, I can feel that it's a bit too much.

Nathalie: What

Andrea: do you feel in your body?

Nathalie: I think probably a little bit gluggy. Yeah. Like a little bit inflamed. So I have found... , this could be a little tip. I've found a little a substitute for me, and anything that involves a sweet potato makes me happy.

Andrea: It does, doesn't it?

Nathalie: Yes.

Andrea: You should be called Nathalie Sweet Potato Sebbag should be your name.

Andrea: Yeah,

Nathalie: uh, pretty much. [00:37:00] My partner would... Yes, he thinks I've got shares in a sweet potato farmer. I should become a sweet potato farmer. But , in the Asian section in the supermarket- Oh, yeah ... there are these sweet potato noodles, and it literally is just sweet potato starch. And while it's not the same consistency as pasta and it's not rice, for me it's been a really good substitute, and I feel like I can have it with a curry, have it with my bolognese.

Nathalie: Um, and Oh, actually I can give another little tip food-wise. So with the autoimmune, o you can't have tomato-

Nathalie: So, and I love bolognese sauce but that's tomato-based, and I knew that my body didn't feel right having too much tomato.

Nathalie: And I actually never liked tomatoes growing up. So what I would do is make a slow-cooked beef dish or lamb dish of some sort, and would always make extra sauce so that once that dish was finished, whatever sauce and veggies were left over, I'd freeze or, like, puree- Yeah ... or leave as whole, and [00:38:00] freeze that until I was ready to make a bolognese.

Nathalie: So that would be my sauce-

Andrea: Perfect ...

Nathalie: for the bolognese as opposed to a tomato base.

Andrea: Yeah.

Nathalie: Okay, so it doesn't taste traditional, but I've had to adapt- Yeah ... my flavor profile anyway.

Andrea: Yeah.

Nathalie: And, um- The

Andrea: same as me.

Nathalie: Yeah. Yeah. And I love it. Yeah. Like for me it's, it's like, yes, I get to have my bolognese on my sweet potato noodles.

Andrea: Yeah. Perfect. And this is the thing, too. Like if we go through a health journey like you have and I have, and l- the listeners have heard mine if they listened to episode one. I've had to make very similar changes- Mm ... to you, and- Y- you get used to the new normal, and it tastes good, and you feel good, so you wanna eat that way.

Andrea: Yeah. Like, you don't wanna eat the other way because you don't feel as good that way. Okay, can we go on another tangent now? Yeah. So you're an osteopath.

Nathalie: Yeah.

Andrea: Nattie and I went to uni together. That's how we know each other, so it's been 31 years that we've known each other

Nathalie: for. That we've been friends.

Nathalie: It's amazing, and we're only 38. It's amazing. [00:39:00] 

Andrea: We are only 38. Yeah. We started university at age seven.

Nathalie: Yeah.

Andrea: I love that. But you spent your career kind of telling other people how to heal. Well, not telling, but showing- Mm ... and explaining and teaching other people how to heal. And so what did it feel like for you the first time you had to really listen and take your own advice too?

Andrea: On, especially on- Yeah ... a diagnosis like MS?

Nathalie: Mm. I think I'm still listening.

Andrea: Yeah.

Nathalie: It really is a conversation That is evolving. And it's actually interesting. It was... I think I shared with you recently that just before the diagnosis, before the symptoms came on, I said to myself, I remember I was at work and I was treating someone, and I just sort of this spontaneous thought came into my head that I was like I wanna start to feel.

Nathalie: I wanna start to feel things, and not necessarily just tangible, but heartfelt things. I wanna [00:40:00] feel, love, feel joy, feel sadness, feel grief, whatever it is. 'Cause I was always a pretty everything's good.

Andrea: Yeah.

Nathalie: And, you know, we've all ... W- we don't get to our age without having experienced life and the roller coasters of it.

Nathalie: And I was like, "You know, I just wanna feel things." And I think it was weeks later, then all of a sudden I started to get these symptoms. Um- Careful

Andrea: what you wish

Nathalie: for. I know. And i- in Sydney of all places, when it's ... when I first noticed it, so that has some emotional connotations- Yeah ... as well.

Andrea: Can we

Andrea: Without talking about that- Yeah ... can we talk about that, without talking about it? Okay. Nattie and I were both living in Sydney at the same time. Yeah. And you just went through some really big emotional stuff, and it just shows often when there's been some kind of, you know, grief or trauma that, or even, like, an accident or an injury or an illness or a, a breakup or a someone passing away that you love.

Andrea: Like, all of those things can often start triggering. Mm-hmm. Like, we'll often ... When I ask [00:41:00] case histories to my naturopath patients, I'll often be like, "Well, what was happening at that time?" And we'll usually see- Mm ... kind, some kind of trigger, like what you had- Yeah ... that then you'll see it-

Nathalie: Yeah ...

Andrea: tip off into

Nathalie: what I mean.

Nathalie: And I even, I ask my osteopathic patients. So yeah, it is interesting that certain life events can bring things on. Yeah, so I was in Sydney when those symptoms came about, and so it was funny, I can see the humor in things. So that when my pins and needles came on in my hands, I was like, "I use my hands all the time.

Nathalie: Am I not gonna be able to feel? I've just asked to be able to feel more, and now is my ability to feel, gonna be taken away? Like, and this is my life." Yeah. Like, "This is what I do. I love what I do." And so it was an interesting process going through all of that change and that conversation in my head.

Nathalie: And then it's that shift on, we're so used to helping others and supporting others in their health journeys. [00:42:00] I'm still working on how to be a good practitioner for myself.

Andrea: Yeah.

Nathalie: And, , seven and a half years in, I think I'm still navigating. I'm really fortunate that I have an incredible network of fabulous practitioners, whether they're osteopaths or naturopaths- Mm-hmm

Nathalie: and other healers that I'm now starting to do it a little bit more. But I think it's the more the self-discipline and the routine and consistency that is where I could improve, I think. so just being a little bit more diligent in consistency with food finding a sport or an activity that you love.

Nathalie: And while we share lots of amazing food- How

Andrea: I came into padel padel. I've been trying to pull her into padel for how long now? Six months? Might be more. Might be more than that ... you gotta come and play." Longer.

Nathalie: Yeah. "

Andrea: Gotta come and play this game with me. I'm really addicted. You're gonna love it.

Andrea: You loved tennis when you were young." And now you started in March, is that

Nathalie: right? Yes. Yep. She's hooked. She's

Andrea: got the bug. It's

Nathalie: contagious. It's [00:43:00] contagious. So I think it's just finding things that you enjoy doing, that it's not an effort. And just being a little bit more consistent. So I've found a little routine, 'cause I'm not a gym person.

Nathalie: Yeah. So I've found my little routine that I do at home, like a lymphatic kind of routine, that I've been able to, in a way, incorporate, whether I do it all at once or during the day, in between patients. Yeah. It doesn't require a gym or weights.

Andrea: . And you need to rest.

Andrea: That's a big part- Mm ... of what you need to do. And I... You have really good boundaries around that.

Nathalie: Do I?

Andrea: Yeah, I think you do. I think you do. I think

Nathalie: I'm still learning,

Andrea: I think. She's still learning.

Nathalie: Yes.

Andrea: But, like, I admire you because you often go, "Okay, I can do that social event, but I can't do that one on the same weekend."

Andrea: Mm. And, like, we've done, we've talked about stuff before, and I know I have to... I ask you, and you're like, "No, not this weekend. We can't do that. Can we do it another time?" So I think you have really good boundaries around that. Okay. But, , as you said, you're still working out slowing down. Not just doing less, but actually intentional rest, [00:44:00] and doing things out of joy rather than obligation.

Andrea: Mm. So what does that look like in a normal week for you? Like, how do you get that intentional rest in? Good question.

Nathalie: I was gonna ask you the same thing. Exactly.

Andrea: For those who are listening, I just pulled a face- ... if you're not watching the video, because I, um, I'm not very good at resting.

Nathalie: No. I think that's, uh my advice to you is always, "So how are you resting?"

Nathalie: Um, it's a good question. I think everyone- I

Andrea: had a sauna the other day, Natalie.

Nathalie: Oh, well done.

Andrea: Yeah. Good. I hadn't had any for ages, everyone, because, , I was having perimenopause sweats, and I just couldn't deal with getting into a sauna- Yeah ... for the last three years. But that's all settled very nicely now.

Nathalie: That's good.

Andrea: And, um, uh, and yes, so I got in the sauna- Yeah ... the other day, and I'm like, "You'd be proud of me," 'cause I

Nathalie: I am

Andrea: very proud ... resting in the sauna- Yes ... listening to a podcast. Well done. I still can't do nothing.

Nathalie: It's like you're eating and driving at the same time. The sauna should just be about the sauna.

Andrea: It's about the sauna and a good podcast. [00:45:00] 

Nathalie: That's all right. We'll take what we can get.

Andrea: Yeah, yeah.

Nathalie: So it's a tricky one 'cause I've been thinking about this. I've actually just moved into a new home.

Andrea: Yeah.

Nathalie: But then I love being a bit creative, so, and I find that restful.

Nathalie: So I need a clean space to be able to be creative. Yeah. So at the moment I'm still settling, so it's a little bit tricky doing my creative things, making my room sprays and body sprays, and experimenting with that. By

Andrea: the way, can we talk about those? A slight digress. Yeah. Nattie makes the most beautiful room sprays called Pebble Lane.

Andrea: I helped name Pebble Lane- You did ... about how many years ago? 20

Nathalie: years ago.

Andrea: We were living in Sydney. Yeah. She used to make this amazing rocky road that was full of chocolate and sugar and all the good things- All the things we don't eat ... and marshmallows Yeah ... all the things we don't eat now.

Nathalie: Yeah.

Andrea: , And we're trying to come up with a name for the rocky road, and we came up with Pebble instead of rocky and Lane instead of road, and then you-

Nathalie: A little bit more delicate. Yeah. So I'd already registered the business name- Yeah ... not that I sold any of the rocky roads. I usually just made it and gave it away.

Nathalie: Yeah. Which is kind of the same with-

Andrea: The room

Nathalie: sprays ... the room sprays as well. So [00:46:00] that's how it came, so the name sort of stuck.

Andrea: But y- people can buy the room sprays from you if they get in touch with you. Yes, directly.

Nathalie: Yeah.

Andrea: Yeah.

Nathalie: Yeah.

Andrea: We'll put Nattie's email in the- Yes ... show notes-

Nathalie: Yeah ...

Andrea: below.

Nathalie: Yeah.

Andrea: Yeah.

Nathalie: Sounds good. , So yeah, so I love creating. I find that restful. I now have a garden, so I've been digging a bit. So while there's some exertion, it's actually nice being in the dirt, I think. Again, as I think I mentioned earlier, I wouldn't mind reading, like, whether it's educational or some nonfiction, but I'm finding that my head, at the moment, is too busy for

Andrea: that.

Andrea: I didn't know you couldn't read at the moment. Yeah,

Nathalie: yeah. I've always struggled. I got through high school without reading. And university ... university

Andrea: for

Nathalie: long I used to memorize, I used to memorize stuff.

Andrea: Wow.

Nathalie: I didn't memorize. So that's why anatomy was good for me- Yeah ... 'cause I could memorize it.

Andrea: Yeah.

Nathalie: Yeah. There

Andrea: you go. There you go. Learn something

Nathalie: about your friends

Andrea: every day.

Nathalie: So yeah, so I'm not reading, but I might... Guilty pleasure of, not that it's guilty or anything bad, but a binge of some sort [00:47:00] of-

Andrea: Yeah ...

Nathalie: um, easy to watch- Good Netflix show ...

Andrea: Netflix. I do that too. A little bit. A little

Nathalie: bit.

Nathalie: Yeah.

Andrea: Yeah. It's good 'cause it switches you off and, , it takes your mind away from things.

Nathalie: Yeah.

Andrea: Which is what Padel does for me. I know it's moving my body, but my brain is thinking of nothing else except-

Nathalie: Your bandeja ...

Andrea: my bandeja. For those who, , don't know what Padel is, it's a special kind of overhead shot that only exists in Padel, and it's very hard.

Andrea: It took me about-

Nathalie: Yeah ...

Andrea: thousands of dollars worth of lessons probably. And and about two and a half years it took me to actually go, "Oh, my God, I just did one. I just did one."

Nathalie: And when they work, it's, feels beautiful.

Andrea: Oh, when they work, it feels amazing. Yeah, yeah. I had to put two out on the back wall yesterday- Yeah

Andrea: so I wasn't very happy with that. That's okay. Okay. Now, you and I are in our 50th year. No, I am, you're not.

Andrea: I'm turning 50 this year, Nat is turning 50 next year. So we have both got the perimenopause thing layered in on top of everything else. Can be a bit of brain fog, can be a little bit of maybe forgetting what you're [00:48:00] saying mid-sentence, maybe.

Andrea: Have you experienced any anxiety with it, an increase in anxiety yet? Which I haven't, so that's been something for you. Yeah, I've had a...

Nathalie: Yeah, it's been a big- I think- Probably more like there was a little bit before, I think in my mid-30s sort of started, maybe mid to late 30s. And yeah, very much so now.

Andrea: And so how-

Nathalie: But overwhelm. Overwhelm is the word, yeah.

Andrea: Yeah, okay. How do you differentiate that being perimenopause versus coming from your other things you've been diagnosed with?

Nathalie: I have no idea. It's a little bit, yeah. And then there's brain fog as well. So, and I think for some people with MS, I think the anxiety and brain fog is a symptom that they experience as well.

Nathalie: So I don't know what's what. I feel like in the last year or two it's become worse, and it could be associated with a little bit of some trauma as well over the last six years. Um, so that could be part of it as well. So- Mm ... I'm not gonna put [00:49:00] it all into one basket. I think it's a little bit here, column A, column B.

Andrea: And you know what?

Nathalie: And-

Andrea: Everything that you're doing for one, A, B- Yeah ... or C is gonna support where it comes from anyway. Exactly. It's like coming back- Yeah ... to supporting the root cause- Yeah ... no matter what the actual-

Nathalie: Yeah ...

Andrea: where it's coming from.

Nathalie: Yeah. And I think it's more, yeah, a lot of it's more about overwhelm and- Not wanting to disappoint other people as well.

Andrea: Hmm.

Nathalie: I think. You know, whether it's through social engagements or, 'cause there's a whole lot of FOMO as well.

Andrea: FOMO. Yeah,

Nathalie: missing out. Um, missing out be- you know, being at social events and things like that. Yeah. And I'm still navigating, so it's not something that I think I've found a particular way to navigate it.

Nathalie: But I'm, I'm sort of- choosing. I actually remember, I've got most of my family live in France, and I had just gone through a divorce, and I was traveling, spending time overseas with my family [00:50:00] in France, and I was always the yes girl. "Yep, yep, I'll be there. I'll do that. Yes, I can do it." And it was fine. It was great.

Nathalie: And then in that moment I was like... 'Cause I always found it hard to say no, and I found a word that bought me a bit of time. Oh. And so my uncle would ask me about things, and I would always say, "Peut-être." So peut-être is maybe. Maybe. So maybe was my buy me five minutes or a day, because I wasn't committing to a yes and then going home going, "Oh my God, I've just said yes, and I really don't want to.

Nathalie: I just don't have the energy, or it's not something that I feel comfortable doing right now." But then I didn't say no and disappoint the other person. Yeah. So maybe was my-

Andrea: Middle ground ...

Nathalie: buy me,

Nathalie: buy me a bit of time So now you know my little secret actually.

Andrea: She does

Nathalie: this

Andrea: to me.

Andrea: Maybe. "Hey, Nattie-

Nathalie: Maybe ...

Andrea: do you wanna play this tournament with me in four weeks time?" "Maybe." Like, shit. [00:51:00] 

Nathalie: I need to know now.

Andrea: I need to know now.

Nathalie: We're playing on each other's anxieties, aren't we?

Andrea: I need to lock it in.

Nathalie: And I'm a last-minute now. It's only in the last 5 to 10 years that I'm probably a bit more of a last-minute kinda person.

Nathalie: I know. Whereas I know you're like, "What's happening?" Like, I

Andrea: have my life scheduled out till

Nathalie: November 28th. I'm playing my 50th next year, and it's gonna be in Morocco, and Andrea's like, six months ago was like, "So what date's it gonna be?" "'Cause I need to work out a padel tournament." No, I wanna put, I

Andrea: wanna put some padel lessons in- Yeah

Andrea: Spain after- Yeah ... we

Nathalie: go to Morocco- Yeah ...

Andrea: for your 50th.

Nathalie: Yeah.

Andrea: That's what I wanna

Nathalie: do. So excited. Yep.

Andrea: That's what I wanna do. Yep. Do you know, um, last weekend Shari and I- Yeah ... were at the ACNEM conference.

Andrea: Yes.

Andrea: So Shari is coming on this podcast too. She's another gorgeous friend that Nattie and I went to uni with, who helps me in my program.

Andrea: So she looks after my clients. Mm. Or as, I nickname her Dr. Shari for all the clients in there. , So yeah, Shari and I were at this ACNEM conference, and your seed pancakes and your seed crackers- Oh ... is exactly what you need to be [00:52:00] having for perimenopause, because there's all this new research coming out about soy and phytoestrogens- Yeah

Andrea: and how good it is. And 25 grams a day, they were talking about. Mm-hmm. 25 grams a day of that can be enough to really mitigate many of the perimenopause symptoms. Mm. So I have been upping all of that.

Nathalie: So I need to eat more of my crackers You

Andrea: need to eat more of your crackers- Okay ... and more of your seed pancakes.

Nathalie: Okay.

Andrea: Yeah. And they, they were talking about some muffins that they make too. So maybe we need to- Yeah ... t- turn those into some muffins.

Nathalie: Okay, I'm gonna get experimenting.

Andrea: I think we're kind of coming to the end. Yeah. I feel like we've talked about a lot, but if someone was diagnosed today with what you have-

Andrea: What's the one thing you wish someone had told you on day one?

Nathalie: Ooh

Nathalie: It's okay. You're gonna be okay. There is so much evidence and research out there for so many things, and There's no right or wrong choice. You have to choose what feels right for you and what you feel comfortable with. , [00:53:00] Making sure you have a good team on board, so a good specialist, and family and friend support.

Nathalie: And I'm blessed. I've got a spectrum of friends, so some who are very pro-medicine, and I remember a friend said to me, "If I could strap you down and give you the medication, I would." And I understand where that's coming from for her. And then I've been blessed to have friends who have been sending me all this modern-day research.

Nathalie: And there's a lot out there. , And that we have choice. We have autonomy in these... is this is my body And I get to choose what I do. And don't get me wrong, there's been a lot of doubt, there has been some fear. Have I made the right decision? And I keep coming back to, at the moment I'm feeling okay, and if I do need to go down that path of [00:54:00] going on medication, I'm okay with that.

Nathalie: At the moment, I feel like there are so many things I want to explore, and explore some of the reasons behind a particular diagnosis. 'Cause while it might be a picture on an MRI that indicates something, I think there's more to it than that. So if you feel up for asking questions and going through the dive, there's a lot out there.

Nathalie: Making sure you have a good team, and you haven't done anything wrong. No one deserves any, like-

Andrea: No ...

Nathalie: it is what it is. I know it all sounds a bit whatever, but that it's okay, and that to allow yourself that time and grace to process that information, and to still have fun.

Andrea: Yeah.

Nathalie: And not hold yourself back from experiencing life.

Nathalie: That a particular label, don't let it weigh you down. [00:55:00] And it doesn't define you, and it can change. While you might have been going down a certain path, it's okay. Like, we pivot- Yeah ... and we've all had to pivot.

Andrea: Yeah.

Nathalie: And that's part of life, we don't get to our age without having to do a little, I'm not a dancer, but a little pirouette and a twist and a turn to end up somewhere else.

Nathalie: Yes. And that's okay. , there are so many lessons, but I think just trust. Trust yourself And believe

Andrea: Yeah. Trust yourself is beautiful.

Nathalie: Yeah.

Andrea: We all should trust ourselves and our decisions

Nathalie: that we make. Yeah. And I'm still learning-

Nathalie: That's an interesting relationship as well, .

Andrea: You're an amazing osteopath. I want a treatment at the moment- Yeah. ... 'cause I've got a sore neck. We can do that after. So maybe as soon as we finish the podcast- Yeah ... I'm gonna line her up. Can you just tell everyone where they can find you if they'd like to have- Mm-hmm

Andrea: a treatment from you in, based in Melbourne and a little minute or two about your style of osteopathy?

Nathalie: Ooh. So I [00:56:00] have... My business is called In Health Osteopathy. I work out of a practice in Malvern called Life Force, and I work with a great team of osteopaths, acupuncturists, and massage therapists there.

Nathalie: And then I also work privately out of a small practice in Warrandyte with some other people we studied with. So you can find me online through my In Health Osteopathy website. , And you can direct email me through there.

Andrea: And we'll put that in the show notes.

Nathalie: Yeah. Oh, thank you.

Andrea: Yeah.

Nathalie: I- as you can tell, I'm not very good with self-promotion.

Nathalie: I'm making her promote herself. So I wasn't expecting this. And then on Instagram I've got pebble.lane, so you can see the room sprays and body sprays. Again, that's more direct message. I don't have a website for that. , And the way I treat, I guess over the 25-plus years that we've been practicing, I think I was navigating a little bit more down what we call the indirect way, and the cranial osteopathy or traditional [00:57:00] osteopathy.

Nathalie: I grew up playing a lot of sport, and I I sort of felt like my body type was more geared towards the more gentle approach. So I made sure that I was working with osteopaths at university that had that interest, as well as once I graduated, I was fortunate to work with some incredible osteopaths in this field, and a lot of post-grad work in this as well.

Nathalie: Yeah, you've done

Andrea: a lot of study. Both- We've done- we- Nattie's done more than me, but I've done a fair bit in cranial- Yeah ... osteopathy study as well. Yeah. But yeah, just years and years of it. Yeah.

Nathalie: And both here in Australia, New Zealand, and especially in America with our mentor, Dr. Jealous. And yeah, and being part of a group that are now teaching students as well as osteopaths in this work.

Nathalie: So it's very gentle. It can be for anyone, for newborn babies all the way through to the big children, 90-plus- ... [00:58:00] years old, whatever it is. So it is more of a gentle approach, but it's looking at the body as a whole functional unit and supporting all the systems. So nervous system, the gut, the nerve... Have I said nervous system?

Nathalie: Yeah. Yep. Musculoskeletal. So you can... s- any sort of musculoskeletal condition as well.

Andrea: Yeah. Like my sore neck.

Nathalie: Yeah.

Andrea: I woke up with yesterday. , Natty, I've got some rapid-fire questions for you to finish up with. Okay. Okay? They're gonna be short and sweet. Okay. Quick answer. Just short and sweet, just like her.

Andrea: Yeah. If you didn't see us sitting down, I am very tall and Natty is not. But when we're sitting down- With the chairs ... we're a bit more even.

Nathalie: Yes, I'm feeling better. We can look each other in the eyes now.

Andrea: Okay. Coffee or chai?

Nathalie: Chai.

Andrea: I knew you

Nathalie: were gonna say this.

Andrea: Oh, wait. Loose leaf chai. Loose leaf chai. Yeah.

Andrea: Yeah, real chai. Best recipe you've ever created?

Nathalie: Ooh. Oh, I guess the seed mix. Yeah. Because it's, it can do so much, so versatile.

Andrea: Yeah. I agree. One food you'll never give up no matter what?

Nathalie: Are we talking healthy or [00:59:00] not healthy?

Andrea: Anything. You're not gonna give it up no matter what. I have a guess. You tell me and then I'm gonna tell you what I guessed for you.

Nathalie: Ooh. Well, I'm definitely not gonna give up sweet potato. I don't mind a little bit of milk chocolate.

Andrea: I wasn't thinking that.

Nathalie: What were you gonna say?

Nathalie: For

Andrea: you, I thought you were gonna say hot chips.

Nathalie: Oh, yes. Hot chips. Yes.

Andrea: She's a hot chips fiend. Yes,

Nathalie: she's right. Yes. Yeah. Hot chips don't count, so yeah.

Andrea: What's a guilty pleasure that's actually good for you?

Nathalie: Not ... Hot chips make me feel good.

Andrea: Yeah. Good for your brain.

Nathalie: Uh, guilty pleasure.

Nathalie: Well, I don't wanna feel guilty, to be honest. I just want it to be pleasurable. Yeah.

Andrea: So if you have a bit of milk chocolate, do you feel guilty or you just let yourself have it?

Nathalie: After one, I'm okay. Yeah. But if I've had a few more pieces- You

Andrea: might feel

Nathalie: a bit guilty, yeah ... there might be a bit, yeah. Yeah.

Andrea: One word to describe your kitchen.

Nathalie: Ooh. I can't do it in one word. I was gonna say colorful, flavorful, and plentiful, and abundant.

Andrea: Oh, I like that. Okay. You're allowed four words.

Nathalie: And then, can I [01:00:00] do one more? And I just saw your pantry. It's the same.

Andrea: Yeah.

Nathalie: So organized.

Andrea: Organized. We are very organized with our pantries.

Andrea: Favorite way to move your body?

Nathalie: Oh. padel's the new one.

Andrea: Yeah.

Nathalie: I love walking And I also love trying anything new. So I used to ski, play netball and play tennis. But anything, I'm happy to do anything to move my body.

Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. Okay, lucky last one. What's one kitchen tool you couldn't live without?

Nathalie: Ooh.

Nathalie: A good sharp knife

Andrea: Yeah, good

Nathalie: Yeah. And that, I'll credit Anthony to that-

Andrea: Yeah ... being his ex-chef. Darling, it's been amazing.

Nathalie: It's been lovely.

Andrea: It's been really special for me having you here. I feel like we did a good job, you and me.

Nathalie: I actually think we did all

Andrea: right. I think we did a good job. I had fun. And- I felt like it was a, I would ... Did good interviewing

Nathalie: You

Andrea: did And you did very good answering.

Nathalie: Thank you. Because, like for me, the ... Andrea knows this, that I am not in front of the camera kind of person. So this is new, and, but it felt very comfortable. It was

Andrea: lovely. Yeah. It's 'cause we know each other- Yeah ... and [01:01:00] love each other so much. Yeah. But it's really special for me to have Nattie here and so- Well, thank you ... it's been fun, and I hope you all have really enjoyed hearing Nattie's story, and got some tips, and you're all gonna go and make the seed pancake, often crumble, whatever, mix now.

Andrea: Thank you. Yes.

Nathalie: Enjoy.

Andrea: Natty, thank you. Now, there are three main things I'm taking from this conversation, amongst another wealth of knowledge and experience that came through today. But I wanna say, you were diagnosed with something, and you have never let it become who you are.

Andrea: I wanna say that you built a team around you before you made a single health decision, and that trusting yourself is a skill you are still practicing seven and a half years in, which I think is the most honest thing anyone has said on this show. If you wanna work with Nat, she is at In Health Osteopathy in Malvern, and her details and her Pebble Lane room sprays are in the show notes.

Andrea: And yes, the seed mix recipe is in there, too. Next week, we are talking [01:02:00] about your bones and osteoporosis. A client recently asked me how she gets her calcium now that dairy is out for her, and it's such a good question that it became the whole episode. What happens to bone density through perimenopause?

Andrea: Where the calcium actually comes from, whether you're dairy-free or not. the nutrients calcium cannot work without, and the one thing that builds bone better than any food. For every woman over 40, this one's for you. So please hit subscribe or follow the show on whatever platform you're listening on right now, because you do not wanna miss one single episode.

Andrea: And if someone in your life needs to hear this, please share it with them too, because the more women who have access to this kind of information, the better. Just a little note, all of my free resources, my three-week inflammation detox, and my 12-week whole health solution can be found at andrearobertson.health.

Andrea: Everything you need is right there waiting for you. If you loved today's episode, [01:03:00] please take 30 seconds to leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. It genuinely helps more women find the show so they can nourish, heal, and rise too. Until next week, nourish your body, keep healing, and never stop rising.

Andrea: I'm Dr. Andrea Robertson, and this has been Nourish, Heal, and Rise.

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